If you would like to read one of the many 2-minute arguments made today in opposition to this law, mine is here. More thoughts and analysis of the meeting to come soon, Lord willing. (Spoiler: The new law was approved despite the broad opposition of almost every voter present, many of whom were pastors.)
[NOTE: The text of the law applies to “mental health professionals” while working with minors. It only applies to those pastors that are licensed. The text of my article has been slightly changed to account for that. I also changed the title of the post, because it was misleading people. That was my fault, and I apologize for it.]
At today’s meeting of the Cincinnati City Council law and public safety committee, Council Member Chris Seelbach “will propose an ordinance that would impose a $200-a-day fine on a therapist or counselor practicing the therapy that aims to “change” lesbians, gay men, bisexuals or transgender people from their sexual orientation or gender identity,” according to Cincinnati.com.
According to the article it will likely be a done deal on Wednesday of this week. Seelbach is confident that he has the necessary votes both to make it out of committee tonight and to pass it as law on Wednesday. Although a few states have passed similar laws, no major city has done so, and Cincinnati.com is exultant in claiming that Cincinnati is leading the way in such wickedness.
Why “wickedness”? Because this law is nothing less than a denial of the biblical doctrine of sanctification, threatening fines of $73,000 per year to a counselor that uses 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 to help those caught in sin: “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
In other words, those that refuse to bow the knee to the idol of sexual anarchy being promoted across our land will be forced to pay the price.
I’ve written before about this choice that churches are going to face. Here is how I summed it up:
Every church in the country will have to decide which side we are on and our decision and witness will be made public. After a time of hemming and hawing, we’ll find we have only two options:
1. Publicly opposing homosexual identity and relations by quoting Scripture.
2. Publicly promoting homosexual identity and relations by quoting Scripture.
It looks like pastors and churches in Cincinnati will face this choice sooner rather than later. Now is a great opportunity for churches to speak up for God’s holy law and the grace he offers to sinners. This is not a political question. It is a question of whether or not we are ashamed of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Do we believe in the new birth that Christ speaks of in John 3? Do we believe in the sanctification without which no man will see God? Or do we fear man?
No more hemming and hawing. It’s time to decide now. If your church is in Cincinnati, the choice has been set before you. The Cincinnati City Council will meet this Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 2 p.m. in Council Chambers, Room 300, City Hall, 801 Plum St, Cincinnati, OH 45202. [Please note that the time for public comment is at 1:30pm. My understanding is that each person will be given 2 minutes to speak.]
Please come and speak against this anti-Christian persecution. Please ask your church leaders to be there for the sake of Christians and for the sake of those tempted by sexual perversion in our city.
[Edited to change “pastor” to “counselor” and “church” to “people” in one place.]
[Closing comments. I think we commented this one out, people. Thanks for your contributions.]
110 Comments
GBob
Why are you so obsessed with gay youth? Leave them alone as they are not “wicked” or broken. This so called brainwashing does not work, has never worked and will never work. When will you stop trying to force your brand of Sharia on the public?
Joseph Bayly (Author)
On the contrary, we are all wicked and broken. The good news is that Christ offers forgiveness for our wickedness and healing of our brokenness.
Theresa
No one is forcing anything on any one. Either you get it or you don’t….it’s a choice and the bible is the word if GOD. Either you believe that or you ignore it….your choice.
Baqash Dixon
true
Linda
Amen!!! This is a worse Sodom and Gomorrah we are living in.
Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed and burnt into ashes so we can learn from it and turn away from wickedness of this world
The Lord will save only those who are fearing Him and Obeying Him by walking in his path/righteous path.
2PETER 2:6
James Potkoski
GBob, the Bible and Gospel are sharia law by no means! You better be glad you live in what is left of a God fearing Christian Nation! Because if America completely turns it’s back on God, He will turn this land over into the hand of it’s enemies! Then you will come to understand the truth, grace and mercy of the Gospel was really all about! This Nation was built on the precepts and principles within the covers of God’s Word and as we have disregarded them ever so increasingly over the years, we now see the erosion of America! We must return back to ,”ONE NATION UNDER GOD!” Huckabee 2016!
J. Johnstone
the U.S was never intended to be a christian nation. Do christians murder? do they commit genocide? because the US was founded on slavery and genocide.
daremonai
The only reason you are even allowed to say such things is because we are not a Christian nation. If we had kept our Christian theocratic roots, you would be sitting in cell right now for preaching blasphemy. Your entire sect was once illegal in many states and you would not have been considered ‘Christian’ in a legal sense. You might have even been put to death.
Your hypocrisy is not shocking, but very sad.
its a fact
I’m a born again believer in Jesus Christ our Lord. This is not a Christian nation. It never was and it never will be. Based on Romans 13 this nation was founded on rebellion to the authorities. So how can this be a Christian nation? God’s word never contradicts. And since God’s word is complete, you can’t take Romans 13 out. However, Since God is sovereign in ALL things, this country was placed here on earth with the government HE chose. This county, like any other country is here because he ordained it to be. I can only pray that people would get past this idea that we are a christian nation and that God owes us something. I pray that we would be focused on the Glory of Christ, as Christ was in John 17:24. I pray that we would be focused on proclaiming the Gospel and making disciples.
Judah King
TMH God of Israel is only dealing with the children of Israel no other nations
J. Johnstone
I’ll tell you what. You go ahead with the wicked and broken thing.
The rest of the adult world has stuff to do. I am NOT broken and not being perfect DOES NOT imply an individual is.
Chris
Best of luck to you in Cincinnati. I’m up in Columbus so I’m gonna assume it won’t be long till it gets here. smh
Dede
Well that is merely your opinion however no one has the right to censor anybody else’s free speech.
Dallas
It is not the Christians who are enforcing sharia, but the state. The state has no business dictating to counselors what kinds of services they may offer, or to individuals which services they may seek. Your non-sense is analogous to telling Jews they are conspiring to take over the world because they object to being murdered by Nazis.
The bigger danger is if this is allowed to stand for therapists, then what is to stop them from later dictating to pastors what they can preach?
jjohnstone
um.. that’s just silly.. the state absolutely has the right and the duty to regulate counselors, psychologists, physicians, occupational therapists and physical therapists… unless of course you’re really for un licensed doctors performing medical treatment… oh, wait a minnit.. you ARE… that’s what conversion therapy is…. it’s an attempt to practice medicine without a license.
Thomas
GBob, first off, we are all broken and wicked if not in Christ.
Secondly, those who are pushing to make this foolishness
happen are also wanting to allow Sharia into this nation,
especially in that part of the country.
What they because of blindness do not understand is that if
Sharia supplants Constitution and is enforced then it DOES
NOT tolerate homosexuality: they do murder homosexuals.
So before people continue on in the fairy-tale that Christianity
is so bad for society and such a thorn-in-the-side, get informed
and make an intelligent decision before you all wake-up one
day and realize that the smell of your delusional rose garden
isn’t so comely.
Christianity has Saved you all from a world of hurt and can Save
you to the utmost if you come back to your senses.
jjohnstone
wow.. you sound REALLY crazy.. you mean to imply that this law is a muslim plot?
http://johnpavlovitz.com/2015/12/01/my-emancipation-from-american-christianity/
Barbara Alsip
I have three personal friends that were indeed changed thru scripture, prayer and relationship with the body off Christ, one of them its now married to someone of the opposite sex and gives his testimony in different churches, one is now a Christian rapper and she is praying and waiting on God to bring a husband into her life and the 3rd is a Pastor to gay street prostitutes ministering to them in love thru food and clothing…you can never convince me of what you stated. ..
Barbara Alsip
Of Christ…
Barbara Alsip
This message was in response to someone’s comment that scripture could not change people who were practicing gay lifestyles
jjohnstone
um.. it can’t .. people are born gay. that’s just a fact..just like you can’t pray your way out of being white
Toro Parker
INSANELY hyperbolic, misleading, and sensationalist title in the extreme.
Anybody actually READING the article understands it’s not the quoting of the bible or other religious materials that’s being fined but the attempts at Reparitive Gay Therapy which has time and again been studied and proven to be harmful and ONLY harmful to people struggling with their inborn sexuality…
Good on Cincinnati!!
Joseph Bayly (Author)
So a counselor would be able to say the following without being fined? “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
Don’t be absurd. The law would make it illegal for counselors to quote that verse and many others.
Michael Miller
The Bible also says that sorcerors (pharmakos) won’t be accepted into the kingdom. How many people do you know who work in the pharmacological (medical) field? Do you take any pharmaceuticals? You better stop; that’s sorcery!
Stephen Baker
Your ignorance of Greek, translation, exegesis, etc. should give you pause before posting such silliness.
Michael Miller
In what sense am I wrong?
Darrell Maynard
Why would you a supposedly educated man ask such a truly misleading question? If you aren’t trying to help then you are part of the problem
John
“There’s an entire ethics code that protects Christian counselors from many of these things, which isn’t going anywhere. I can be fined or sued if a client doesn’t know that I am a Christian counselor and I just start using the Bible for their treatment. They have to give consent by returning, knowing that I am a Christian counselor, and the client and counselor have to agree upon whether or not any faith will be incorporated at all. Once the client signs a legal document giving consent, it makes it a lot harder to sue.”
“I don’t think this will impact counseling as much as you think it will. Counselors are not free to use Scripture in therapy as it is. Christian Counselors do have a lot of freedom, as long as they are up front about their beliefs and the client knows what that entales.
As a Counselor in Training, I am glad that this is being banned! Completely hurtful and not at all healing.”
From someone who is in the christian counseling field, Everyone needs to understand the law and other laws before commenting and making a fool of themselves. This is an in an effort to eliminate a very flawed and wrongful therapy technique that does more damage than good for the majority of people.
Joseph Bayly (Author)
Yes. You should have understood the law before you commented. It is not outlawing a technique but “any treatment that aims to change sexual orientation…”
jjohnstone
that is the practice of religion, not counseling. statements like that are inappropriate for a professional counselor to use.
Blackpaws
Toro , I think you are misunderstanding what is taking place. The City of Cincinnati is deciding what text can and cannot be used in private counsel. These pastors / counselors are not actively seeking homosexuals with the intent to force their religion upon them. Instead, people are seeking them out for their guidance and input, then they choose to follow that counseling or not.
What the City is doing is removing a choice they don’t approve of. Choice is freedom, and this is one more attempt to take away some of our freedom.
If you will not stand against a government who is actively removing freedoms 1 at a time because you disagree that activity, who will be left to stand with you when you disagree with the government?
steve
Why would say that we are not enforing any kind of sharia. They would trying to witness to somebody. We are not going to throw anyone off a building or try and hurt them just for being gay.
tony
if we really imposed shiria as it is practiced you would be dead.
Drew M
My friend, do you even know the Gospel, and why humans are in the predicament we are in. Do you at least realize we are broken if we lust after another human being, if we have sex outside of marriage (fornication), if we lie, steal, murder? You at least have to not be saying “Hey, those are valid lifestyles where they are going with God’s plan. No, they are not. Just like a homosexual lifestyle which I even was once in, it is not glorying anything.
Do you not want those who have given into a homosexual lifestyle, or a fornicating lifestyle, or a adulterous lifestyle to relent, repent, and turn back to God? To have eternal life? If not, you are the mean, hating one. I want them all to have eternal life, and I saw that with love, having once been broken myself.
Drew M
And no one is obsessed with gay, just like no one is obsessed with saying murdering is wrong (it is a valid lifestyle, right? Murdering and killing like ISIS?)…but apparently you are obsessed with it since deep down you know it is wrong, goes against human lifestyle, against science, against procreation, etc.
JB11
Goes against science? Lol. I am taking it you have not had a hard science (or even “soft” or social science) class above high school biology class. There are thousands of other animals that also have homosexuality coupling. Penguins are a great example. No it isn’t a “lifestyle” because they live and love just like you and I. They get up, go to work, cook dinner, watch TV, go to sleep…all in the same manner as you. I can’t believe you would compare being homosexual to ISIS. What ignorance and hate you have you in your heart. I am not a Christian but know plenty and you are one of the most hateful and delusional so called Chrostians I have ever encountered. You need to open your heart to love.
Diana
People are being brainwashed into believing that this gay, transgender, transexual is okay. It is not and if we would quit telling people it is okay and start casting out that homosexual spirit, we have all this mix up. You are not born that way.
Sarah Patrick
This does not surprise me one bit. We are living in the last days and it is going to get worse.
Teddy Michael
Its not an obsession but correction of a sociological disorder. Every society must have good morals to thrive & any wayward inclination if left unchecked or supported as in this case leads to its demise. The truth of the matter is getting to the bottom of it to help the victims back to reality of their lives and the only truth is in Gods word. Be blessed.
servant
A False witness shall not go unpunished.
Those whom forasake the Torah praise the wicked but such as keep the Torah Contend with them.
Have they not Heard that Hear is a Command and that whomsoever blasphemes the Righteous Spirit of TRUTH never has forgiveness but is in Danger of Eternal condemnation ?
Better it would be to shut up and Hear The Torah and Scriptures According to HIS Word so as to not remain a self condemned Liar wouldn’t it ?!
Therefore Repentand do works meet for Repentance.
Have they not Heard of Luke 24:25-45 ?
Mary Finley
U know muslims don’t tolerate gays,they would kill them. Real Christians love gays and are only trying to uphold God’s word. We all know we are all sinners and our sins need to b exposed, too. Love all, love God above all!
Maurizio Mesiti
we all are the offspring of the human imperfection, homosexual tendency is part of our imperfenction like some are born with mental or phisical malformations and there is nothing wrong in this, but is very wrong in the practice of homosexuality, or sodomy or pedophilia and other innatural activities. The Bible does not condamn the individual, but the action of the individual, not different from cheating the wife or the husband.
Rich Brown
So are you saying it’s physically impossible for a person to not have sex? Christians, you see, don’t believe that the desire to sin is wrong….only acting out on it.
Joseph Bayly (Author)
A better way to put it is that temptation is not sin. Our desires *do* need to be made holy through sanctification.
jlc
No one is forcing the word of God or trying to brain wash any gay person whether young or old. They can pass whatever laws they want, Gods law will still stand. The only thing is man’s law is going to get a whole lot of people sent to hell. FYI God gives everyone free will. We all have the right to choose how we live, that is why we all have consequences!
susan
What does the Quran say about homosexuality ?
Buckeye0803
Here’s the reality; #1 The law of the LORD is NOT Sharia law; it is much more merciful, to the violating party than any portion of Sharia could ever be. #2 It is very important to not only realize that the Bible condemns the homo way of life, but that physical punishment follows. AIDS was discovered among 5 homosexual men, the anal sphincter and vaginal muscles can be permanently damaged, and the suicide rates of homosexuals are tremendous, despite 60+% of America saying it’s ok, in contrast to the Word of God. Lastly, #3. It is an attack on my freedom of religion and speech to say that I cannot quote Bible to try to help people out of a sinful lifestyle; if they don’t like my message, they may simply turn away and not listen. The issue is not whether or not we’re “homophobic”, it’s an issue of opinion, and because mine isn’t popular, it therefore isn’t valid. Quite frankly, it’s a load of rubbish. If I want to say that I do not agree with the homosexual lifestyle, I should be allowed to say it, and the fact that a city is threatening to make free speech illegal should send chills down the backs of every American, whether you agree with the lifestyle or not, and that’s the truth.
Terry Fitzgerald
Perhaps you would care to point out how marvelously successful the paranoid, delusional , money hungry non-Christian psychologists and psychiatrists with such a high suicide rate themselves have been in “curing” much of anything without drugs?
Judah King
God will not let sinners into the kingdom of heaven period.
Wayne Blakely
God has given me a ministry in educating pastors, church members and gays referencing the same text that you mentioned above. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. Notice that in the passage, there is not promise to make someone “heterosexual.” Simply a promise that there is healing from “homosexuality.”
Many uneducated therapists, pastors and leaders in churches, as well as congregational members… believe that if I am having the same kind of sex you are having, or if I desire heterosexual sex, I’m cured.
But is that what God is asking from us? Is it about “sexual orientation?” Or is it about a spiritual transformation that puts my focus on Jesus and doing His will instead of my own, or what my flesh cries out for. If I go through reparative therapy and start chasing girls instead of guys, is that what redeems me? Or does God want my whole heart, my mind and my body and allow Him to lead. That may be to live a celibate life. Or it may also mean that He might direct me to the one woman that He would have me fall in love with? He didn’t ask me to fall in love with the entire female population.
This in no way is holding on to any gay ideology. This is about Jesus, not a sexual orientation. No where in God’s Holy Word to us, does He direct us to be oriented to sex. He asks that we be oriented to Him.
There are statistics on both sides of these therapies. But some of the statistics show that the therapy, which is not always Christian based, leaves those who failed at becoming “straight,” returning to the gay community or committing suicide.
I am impressed to share that “All things are possible” for those who love God, that would please Him. But simply becoming heterosexual with erotic desires for the opposite sex, still puts the focus on self… not Jesus.
I advocate for Christian psychology, that helps a practicing homosexual recognize that we need not act on our temptations. And to help align that precious soul with God’s plan for them. The Word shows that that is not in homosexual behavior. It means living a surrendered life to Jesus by abiding in Him and not living in open rebellion against His perfect ways.
I don’t overcome by demonstrating different sexual desires, but by living in agreement with Jesus. Revelation 12:11 They overcame by the word of their testimony and by the blood of the Lamb. So much so that they would not shrink from death.
Joseph Bayly (Author)
What He requires from us is to confess Him with our bodies how he made us: man or woman.
Sharon
But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we wil serve the Lord.
Joshua 24:15
Joseph Bayly (Author)
Amen.
Terry Fitzgerald
Amen and amen!!!
Jim McCown
This proposal is utterly ridiculous. Our country is getting in terrible shape. When those in the minority can dictate what all people do, things are not being done as our constitution would require. I guess this law will dictate what Christians can say about gays, but yet allow the gays and queers to say anything they please about the Bible and Christians. All this lbgt nonsense started when Barrack Obammy openly spoke out in favor of gays and queers. Crazy.
Joseph Bayly (Author)
No. The nonsense started long before President Obama said anything.
Georgeanne Baldwin
True Bayly, the trouble did start before obama. It started when God’s perfect creation was given choice to decide. When the serpent spoke to Eve, she chose the lie. The lie that she would become like God. And we have been broken and fallen since that day.
Joseph Bayly (Author)
Actually, we have been broken and fallen since Adam ate. It was in his choice that we were condemned, even though Eve ate first. This is because he is our federal head.
Terry Fitzgerald
Don’t forget the psychiatric community and universities, Jim. And of course there are the Progressives/Secular Huminanists with Hillary in that mix.
Larry
One point was not discussed. 501 c3 status of churches.
Neighbor
There’s no better way to preach Gods Truth than to manipulate language and speak mistruths! “Quoting the bible in public” has nothing to do with this law. It’s about a “therapy” that is labeled as damaging by the AMA.
Also, as your church is in clermont county, well outside the Cincinnati municipal boundary, this not only doesn’t affect you but you have no vote to voice. Petition your own politicians.
Joseph Bayly (Author)
Speaking of mistruths, I never talked about “Quoting the bible in public.”
I haven’t seen the text of the law. All I can go off of is the news reports. My assumption is that this is based on similar laws like the one in CA, which clearly prohibits thousands of people from quoting the Bible in their work with troubled youth.
Yes, the building we meet in is in Clermont County. And some of us live and work inside city limits. Thanks.
No Fear in Love
Although the Author may not have said anything about “quoting the bible” in the body of the article, that is the title of the piece, yes? It is fear mongering and miss-representing laws like this that whips Christians into the religious frenzy and paranoia we’re seeing around the country today. This is a law that will only influence therapists, and not those practicing within a church. It also definitely won’t impact your church as it has been noted they are outside of city limits. White western Christians crave the idea of persecution, perhaps to assuage their guilt over the painful social impact they’ve had on minorities in all US states since colonizing this nation. Outside of the public sphere (to which many therapists belong if state funded healthcare is paying for their clients) there is no real threat of your free speech and biblical rhetoric being impaired. The Government isn’t coming into your church. You may preach, believe and counsel as your religious text directs you to. I do hope, however, that when clients approach you for counsel you are sure to direct them firmly away from speaking in the church if they’re female (1st Corinthians 14:34 ), dressing up (1st Peter 3:3 ), swearing and oath (Matthew 5:34), self defense (Matthew 5:39…gun ownership ), praying in public (Matthew 6:6….wait), marrying a divorced woman (Matthew 5:32), having possessions ( Luke 14:33), eating pork and shellfish (Leviticus 11:4, Leviticus 11:10 ), uncovered heads and ripped clothing (Leviticus 10:6 ), wearing mingled garments (Leviticus 19:19), shaving your beard (Leviticus 19:27 ), having tattoos (Leviticus 19:28 ), attending church after child-birth (Leviticus 12:4–5), allowing sinners to live (Deuteronomy 17:7). Let me know when you, your parishioners, and those you counsel are free from all these sins. Then feel free to cast the first stone (John 8:7).
Joseph Bayly (Author)
Your entire comment is meant to show that the Bible is an illegitimate and impractical guide. I’d be happy to address each of those passages and any questions you might have about them in person.
Regarding the article title, it is accurate. See my comment at the top of the article body. I never said, “in public” which is what “Neighbor” claimed. I don’t think any reasonable person would assume that I meant nobody inside Cincinnati is allowed to quote the Bible anymore, even if they just read the title. Obviously there is a context that must be discovered by… reading the post.
Timothy Scott
Haha it’s the health professional who are brainwashing these kids. Have you worked in the schools lately? I have. What a mess? Its the quacks in psychologists messing around with your children. There self esteem will be hurt. They need discipline.. They same kind we got.
The Bible is the answer for these kids. Oh, get rid of their music , tv, video games. They are teaching your life to embrace homosexuality. That’s why they are so confused.
neighbor
I apologize for adding “in public.”
I’ve researched the law in CA and you’re wrong on that, too. The law simply and explicitly states,
865.1.
Under no circumstances shall a mental health provider engage in sexual orientation change efforts with a patient under 18 years of age.
865.2.
Any sexual orientation change efforts attempted on a patient under 18 years of age by a mental health provider shall be considered unprofessional conduct and shall subject a mental health provider to discipline by the licensing entity for that mental health provider.
It does NOT say they cannot quote scripture.
Joseph Bayly (Author)
So a counselor would be able to say the following without being fined? “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
Don’t be absurd. The law would make it illegal for counselors to quote that verse and many others.
No Fear in Love
I don’t think that neighbors is saying that verse could be quoted in therapy. (Correct me if I’m wrong neighbor.) It’s more likely that they are referring to the implication in your clickbait title that this law is directed at expressly restricting the use of Christian scripture and prohibiting its applicafion therapy, rather than what it actually refers to. Christian texts are not the only ones with anti-gay rhetoric, and are not being specifically targeted by this law. It seems rather to target the pseudoscience of “conversion therapy” or “reparative therapy” which has been proven to be psychologically damaging time and time again and does not belong in a therapeutic environment.
http://web.archive.org/web/20110407082738/http://www.psych.org/Departments/EDU/Library/APAOfficialDocumentsandRelated/PositionStatements/200001.aspx; http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~usclrev/pdf/072502.pdf
Even strongly rejected by some evangelical leaders:
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3474464
Joseph Bayly (Author)
The text of the law clearly prohibits any sort of attempt to change people. It is not limited to some particular therapy. And it would certainly prohibit the use of the verse I’ve quoted. Thanks.
Charlie
What happened to freedom of religion.. This is bull …I didn’t serve in the army for political bull ….I’m a believer in Christ try and shut me up punks
Sare
It’s funny that you use scripture to try to fight a law that says you’re not allowed to bash people about the head with scripture.
This is the state making sure that it’s separate from the Church. It’s not persecution. Persecution would be if you were all locked up or denied your ability to worship. This is keeping you from persecuting others.
Just because you believe in this stuff doesn’t mean that you get to counsel based on it’s edicts.
Also, it’s pretty hypocritical to preach ANYTHING from the old testament…especially if you’re wearing mixed fibers 19:19. visiting a church within a month of giving birth (two months if you’ve had a girl) 12:4-5, planting two different seeds in one field 19:19 , trimming your beard 19:27, sitting down when in the presence of the elderly 19:32, mistreating foreigners 19:33-34, working on a Sunday 23:3, selling your land 25:23 or cursing your parents (this one gets you the death penalty) 20:9.
Plus, it says you get to keep slaves, if they are from a nation near you 25:44, as I’m Canadian, does that mean I get to have one of you as my slave?
And for any of you who think that you get to pick and choose which of these rules to follow, or don’t want to follow any rule except the one about homosexuality because Jesus…Matthew says he said that you had to follow all the rules.
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19
So, when does the campaign about beards, mixed fabric and working on the Sabbath start?
Also, it means you’re going to be in full support of the refugees right? We wouldn’t want to mistreat those foreigners right?
Georgeanne Baldwin
Try the definition of Diaspora for these old testament Jewish laws. Most of these do not address current day man and his activities.
Lisa DeFevers
Not if I can help it. Im contacting as many Chrisitans as I can , The days of sitting around on the sidelines are over for the body of Christ! its time for the church to awaken in Jesus mighty name!!
Rich Brown
Christians don’t preach doctrine based on the Old Testament, so I can dispense with your entire lengthy post by saying this: The New Testament also teaches against homosexuality.
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Bowie
Does that apply only to secular therapists or counsellors or also churches that receive no taxpapayer support? I would think it would only apply to those in the secular sector but since i’m an outsider I can only speculate.
Joseph Bayly (Author)
I don’t know yet. If it’s based on the CA law, it will apply to a *lot* of people:
neighbor
LOL Churches don’t pay taxes, that is DEFINITELY taxpayer support!
Stephen Smith
If you think this only applies to therapy and counseling services outside of the church, you’re sorely mistaken. Lots of Pastors do their counseling in their offices and this laws shall not have any bases to exist! And this law, if it were to pass, can be the base to use in other cities and counties and it must be stop now!
Kimberly Alsip
I start by posing a question. Are there people all over this world making different sexual decisions or preferences well known? My answer, yes there are. Are there people all over this world born everyday with an onset of sexual preference? My answer, yes there are. If you can stand up and deny what I say then even a heterosexual cannot claim their onset.
I am the Mother of four beautiful boys. Three of which were born with massive birth defects, one with completely good health. All of which have the same Father. We have faced hormone deficiency, midline defect, a syndrome called C.H.A.R.G.E., complete deafness, mass amount of surgeries, therapists ,(OT, PT, SPEECH ect.), and last but most definitely not least, the fear of Hermaphroditism. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THIS WAS A CHOICE? DO YOU BELIEVE ALL ARE BORN WITH THE CHOICE? That’s just simply not true. Did your Parents give a list to God before you were born? WELL I DID, and guess what, I just got a different blessing. YES, I am a born again child of our Lord Jesus Christ. I love my savior and my Bible. I also love humanity and all that comes with that. No , I am not gay, lesbian or transgender. I am a heterosexual. I also am not a judgemental person who will live their life with harshness against a person who may have been born with a different genetic makeup they didn’t request. I will spend my days in prayer, not in persecution. Thank you for listening.
Joseph Bayly (Author)
Dear Kimberly,
Thanks for your comment. Praise God for the wonderful gift of children that He has given you.
Yes, the fact that we are all born in sin and with the results of sin affecting us is something that we teach. The fact that some of us are tempted by homosexuality or to be effeminate is not surprising or denied by us. Nor do we deny that some of us face physical defects of various sorts. These are all a result of the fall, when Adam sinned in the Garden of Eden.
You have sought to fix the physical results of the fall, and I commend that. Christ has also provided a way to fix the spiritual results of the fall–that is, our sin. If we repent of our sins, God has promised us forgiveness in the blood of Jesus Christ.
Regarding hermaphroditism, it is a physical malady, not a sin, and is unrelated to transgenderism or homosexuality.
Laur Moor
Or maybe it should be illegal for gay people to go to counseling in the first place… since they are already happy with their lifestyle? If they have issues, maybe it’s because that little voice (conscience) is telling them something about their lives isn’t right, so this ruling prevents a true meaningful counseling service.
Linda
If gays and trans gender wish to be accepted. …why can they in turn leave Christians and people that believe in God alone? Our Constitution says…..Freedom of Religion. It does not mention gay rights or sex change.I am a Christian and I will not judge or treat you bad for your beliefs so would you Please do the same?
Bob
It’s time to cut the devil down
Daye Smith
I don’t care what you say. We are not condemning anyone. God’s Word condemns Homosexuality as well as lying, drunkeness, stealing, worshiping false Gods, and mixing false religion with true religion, (esp. Idolatry), and many other things. It is a guide which we all follow or choose not to follow. If your conscience bothers you that much you need to change your behavior. We had this tried in Houston. Mayor Parker (who is gay), required religions to present written sermons to evaluate for anti gay contend. She was forced to back off.
ahava
We have the first amendment and no amount of threats will take our constitutional right away. Putting us in jail for using our 1st amendment is illegal! By the way, homosexuality is an abomination to the L-rd…amen! Chris Seelbach might be gay, but he has no power to become communistic with the 1st amendment.
neighbor
60% of American Christians support gay marriage.
ahava
We have the first amendment and no amount of threats will take our constitutional right away. Putting us in jail for using our 1st amendment is illegal! By the way, homosexuality is an abomination to the L-rd…amen!
Chris
I saw people sharing this on Facebook and this article is very misleading. Actually do some research on Leelah Alcorn from Cincinnati and then make a comment. This was all because an LGBT person was forced into this conversion therapy and committed suicide it is also only banning it from minors and only from doctors and therapists. So calm down, no one is taking anyone’s religious freedoms away.
TJ
I believe it is possible to discourage gay leanings without the need to quote any religious doctrine. There are plenty of statistics and studies about such things as the high suicide rates, especially among young people. The LGBT and medical communities are doing these people a disservice by leading them to believe that they will be happier by pursuing such a lifestyle. I can actually understand the pursuit of such activities for temporary “recreational” purposes, just as people pursue other forms of recreation that can have long-term negative consequences to their lives, but making it a lifestyle and subjecting children to it is wrong. Several children of gay parents presented negative reports to the Supreme Court about being raised in gay homes and about how they felt about being intentionally denied a father or a mother. Regardless of any religious doctrine, having any segment of our society pursue or condone such lifestyles harms the society as a whole and there should be the allowance for teaching that concept.
Jeremy
This fearful reaction speaks loudly to the power of God’s Word!
Pete Herrera
Delete my other post and use this one please.
I humbly submit that same-sex marriage goes against what God instituted and same-sex marriage destroys one of the moral foundations that this country was founded on.
And a society without a common moral belief system leads to chaos and ruin. And a country that is divided will not stand. And I humbly submit that being gay is a lifestyle choice since all have free will to choose the lifestyle they choose to live. And there is no gene to support the theory that a person is born that way. And biblical, God instituted marriage, between a man, and a woman, Only. And the purpose of marriage between a man and a woman was to unite the two flesh, into one flesh, so that the man and the woman could understand, what it is like to be one in character, one in thought, one in actions, and one in their love, for one another, as the godhead are who are 3 separate entities yet one in the same in their belief.. And the biblical, purpose of marriage was so that man would not be alone and also, so that the man would have an intimate companion, partner, friend and helper in the woman. And sex, between a man and a woman, in a marriage, was so that mankind could be fruitful and multiply, which was part of God’s design and plan for mankind. And sex, in a marriage, between a man and a woman was also a way to enable mankind, first hand, to know what it is like to create, something, out of love. And sex in a marriage was also a way to unite and draw the man and the woman closer together. And when things get really bad because of the wickedness and evilness of man’s choices and actions, who do you think the people are going to blame because of their choices. They are going to blame the true followers of Christ who tried warning them beforehand who choose to obey God out of love. And The creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is in them has the right to establish His rules and his government and His society any way that He likes because He created it all. And just because a person does not agree with the things that God set up and instituted does not change the fact that HE has set up His society with rules which governs the people. And Sharing God’s position in love, on any matter of truth is a matter of correcting someone’s actions out of love rather than condemning their them as a person. And we are our brothers and sisters keepers which is why we share the truth of God’s word in love.
Rob B
Here we go again. Attack on the Bible. It isn’t about politics, or freedom of speech, it is about Satan’s attack upon the Gospel of Jesus. It is a spiritual battle. What people are missing is this is just the tip of the iceberg. It starts at this point for counselors or therapist. Next a Sunday School Teacher, next the pulpit. As a pastor if I speak out against a particular sin such as homosexuality or abortion I will be penalized as well. Not tomorrow, or a month from now, but it is coming. It is Satan wanting to shut down free speech. Plain and simple. The attack will eventually come upon the church. When that day comes and church refuses to pay a fine, the tax exempt status will be removed. Then you will see churches close because they can’t pay property taxes. Nothing more then the secular progressive Huffinton Post people want.
Michael brosmore
Gentlemen your righteousness is nothing but filthy rags. Jesus said all sin is the same. So as a Christian I come to you my brothers to warn you of being judgemental. Remember you will be judged as you judge
Stephen Baker
Jesus said all sin is the same? Really? Doesn’t Scripture say this? “So Pilate said to Him, ‘You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?’ Jesus answered, ‘You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin’ (John 19:10, 11). Or this: “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you’ (Matthew 11:21, 22).
And didn’t Jesus say this? “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matthew 12:31, 32).
And aren’t you yourself being judgmental?
Steve
This is singling out Christians and is very prejudicial towards those. Is the koran included? Is there no more freedom of speech? If I was a pastor I would be on a plane to Sincinnati to walk the streets calling sin what it is in a loving way.
Michael C.
For Christians who feel like society is attacking them for their beliefs by claiming them of being discriminatory against homosexuals I have a question. Why quote a verse like 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 to back up your beliefs? it only re-enforces the hate Christians have against Gays. There are several other sins mentioned in that verse. Yet Christians have taken it upon themselves to narrow down to “Homosexuals” when it comes to their outrage. Why aren’t you protesting outside of Bars & T.G.I.Fridays? I will tell you why. Maybe you don’t like drunkards, or idolators, or even adulterers. But homosexuals make you the most uncomfortable. You forget that ALL sin is equal in the eyes of God and you definitely forget about not judging lest ye be judged. And then you wonder how society can view you as being hypocrites.
James
Both the link pointing to this article and the article itself use the title, “Quoting Bible illegal in Cincinnati starting this Wednesday…”, and yet, as someone has already pointed out, the law in question has nothing to do with quoting the Bible. The title makes it out as if anyone who quoted the Bible would be breaking the law, when more accurately, the law is addressing the issue of conversion therapy, otherwise known as reparative therapy, as being applied to anyone under the age of 18…
…period.
There’s also this quote from Bayly’s article:
Except that, again, it has nothing to do with quoting the Bible or scripture. It has everything to do with the use of a particular type of psychotherapy that is designed to change sexual orientation or gender identification when it is applied to someone under age 18. It doesn’t make it illegal to use such a therapeutic model on a legal, consenting adult.
There’s nothing about the law, as far as I can tell, that would make it illegal for a Pastor to deliver a sermon in church about the sin of homosexuality. There’s nothing in the law that would prevent a Christian counseling clinic from quoting the Bible, or that would forbid a Christian counselor from quoting the Bible in any other counseling setting not involving conversion therapy and a minor age child.
This article is “click bait” designed to pull in both people of faith who believe the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin (the issue is complex and I’m inclined to shelve it rather than write 3,000+ words explaining why it’s complex), and those who think that Christians are superstitious neanderthals who rejoice at discrimination and bigotry and who would rather believe the Earth is flat and about 6,000 years old.
Add to all that the fact that America isn’t a Christian nation nor has it ever been. No nation that has ever existed has ever followed God except ancient Israel.
The apostle Paul didn’t protest against the various pagan laws in the Roman Empire and he didn’t try to change the Roman government. He did hold accountable people who had already become disciples of Jesus to Biblical standards as they were understood by a man with a classical first century CE Jewish education as adapted to a non-Jewish population.
If Paul didn’t think it was his job to complain about governments or the laws enacted in the various areas of the diaspora where he traveled, why should we complain when a city government (though it isn’t actually doing so) is denying “the biblical doctrine of sanctification?” It’s not the City of Cincinnati’s job to uphold biblical doctrine, it’s the job of the Church.
We live in a dark and fallen world. Our job is to be a light, not a complainer. We can’t be a light if Christians write articles that are full of half-truths and outright errors and post them to the web. It damages the credibility of Christianity and the sanctity of the Name of God.
God isn’t a politician. He’s God. We should spend our time making sure we are living a life that upholds the Bible, and acting as a light illuminating others. Cincinnati will take care of itself. If we want to be agents of change, that change starts with each of us acting with morality and integrity, not shooting from the hip, so to speak.
Joseph Bayly (Author)
“Except that, again, it has nothing to do with quoting the Bible or scripture. It has everything to do with the use of a particular type of psychotherapy”
Wrong. I changed the title, but you are just wrong about what the law says. It doesn’t limit it to a particular type of psychotherapy. Here is the applicable text from the law, which I finally have:
““Conversion therapy” means any treatment that aims to change sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual or to convert an individual who identifies with a gender other than the gender assigned at birth to the originally assigned gender.”
So tell me again, would a counselor be able to quote that verse?
James
I re-read the newspaper article to make sure of my facts (short of reading the actual language in the law, I have to use that article as my only immediate source of information).
The law makes it illegal to apply conversion therapy to a minor. As far as I know, whether the therapy is religiously based or otherwise doesn’t matter. If a counselor intended to use conversion therapy, from a religious or secular perspective, upon a minor child, that counselor would be in violation of the law (assuming it passes).
If you, as a Pastor, were to provide conversion therapy to someone under the age of 18, whether you quoted from the Bible or not wouldn’t be the issue. The issue would be that you applied conversation therapy on a minor age child within the city limits of Cincinnati.
I realize that I have no hope of convincing you of the logical fallacy your are presenting. I have no investment in changing your mind. I do think, for the sake of accuracy, fairness, and ethics, that people reading your blog post and these comments realize that the circumstances you’re presenting as fact aren’t supported by the evidence.
You can lambaste me as you will, though I’m somewhat dismayed that a member of the clergy and a Pastor of God’s flock would do so, but I’ve said what I came here to say. I’m not going to waste your precious time or mine by engaging in an endless and fruitless “back and forth” debate.
Lloyd
Well James, I guess you seem to think that a Christian is to follow every law that is contrary to the written Word of God. I guess Peter and John thought differently and spent time in jail telling the “law makers” that they would obey God rather then man.
Joseph Bayly (Author)
That is a passage we will have to refresh in our minds more and more in the coming days.
Rich Brown
Because liars and drunks aren’t protesting and suing Christians for ‘discrimination’ for saying it’s wrong to lie and drink. Also, liars and drunks aren’t insisting that Christian business people assist them with their lying and drinking or be subject to an anti-discrimination suit.
Jason Robinson
This law as a matter of personal conversation is a violation of 1st Amendment speech and will falter in the legal system.
As a matter of counseling, all a person has to do is provide such information as an alternative opinion rather than as course for spiritual correction amd transformation.
It will come down to people having and needing to stand up even at their peril professionally to be true to God. The day fast approaches when people will face incarceration for stating that Jesus is the ONLY way to eternal life and Jehovah God the Father.
Allah, Buddha, Confucius, Dali, and all other demons will rise together to try and overcome Jehovah’s kingdom but will ultimately fail in the end.
Unlike Syrian refugeea who won’t stay home and fight for their land and nation and people, we as True disciples of Jesus must be willing to forsake all others even our families at our death to stand for the Lord Jesus the Anointed One!!!!
Ellen
If this law stands, how long will it take to “outlaw” religious speech period. And, if our religious freedoms are denied, how long then will it take to deny other freedoms? Many of you are focusing on one issue. Look at the broad scope of things. Wake up, those who are snoozing! I will say this to clarify things: Yes, I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. I believe what the Bible says is true. It is a pastor’s responsibility to provide wise counsel to all. It is not a popularity contest. PLEASE SAVE YOUR RUDE COMMENTS FOR SOMEONE ELSE. BE CIVIL AT LEAST. Thank you.
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Sue
All I will say about this is don’t cast your pearls to the swine.
Cynthia
Add who decided to “re-write” 1 Corinthians 6:9-11? I’ve never seen ANY Bible with that embellished passage.
The entire credibility of the article is shot when you inject falsehood into the narrative to fit your own agenda.
Joseph Bayly (Author)
Not sure what you’re talking about. Check it out here: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%206:9-11&version=NASB
Ben Spratling
Thanks for bringing this to everyone’s attention. Of course there are kooks that get lumped in under an umbrella term like “sexual orientation change efforts” as bans in other states have said. But the beneficial and effective therapeutic modalities get lumped under it, too. Those beneficial therapies generally follow 2 Peter 1:5-7 (and too many other scripture to quote here), which is a Biblical step ladder from faith to agape love. By banning “therapy” for “minors” it means that we cannot seek the assistance of educated and trained persons skilled in helping us raise our children consistent with our (and their!) religious beliefs. For the person who called it “brainwashing”, I’ve actually researched the steps in brainwashing and I know the steps in the therapy I was in, which was entirely successful for me. They are not in any way the same. I wish that there was someone at my church who could have recognized the signs and helped me in my teens, it would have let me skip over so much pain, and even a near suicide attempt, in which God himself had to intervene to convince me not to do it.
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